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      Кто ездит на ИС+ Киев-Одесса-Киев

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Author Topic: Кто ездит на ИС+ Киев-Одесса-Киев  (Read 25460 times)
Andersen
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« Reply #20 on: 22.09.14 , 14:09 »
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Maxy, where in Ukraine do you think such money for upgrade would be spend with the greatest effect, with a "wow" effect, if not on any of the Odesa lines (where you don't like it because the VIP buses are quicker anyway)?

Don't you think that a comfortable train (like the TWINDEXX Express double-deck intercity train, in a 6 car configuration) travelling from the center of Odesa to the center of Kyiv in 5:30 with a ticket price of around 290 Hrivs and discounts for students etc. could count on at least 50% of the current Autoluks passenger flow?
Even if Autoluks makes the trip in 5 hours (sometimes, pending the traffic situation), it is not center to center, but busstation to busstation.
« Last Edit: 22.09.14 , 15:09 by Easttripper » Logged
Maxy
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« Reply #21 on: 22.09.14 , 22:09 »
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Maxy, where in Ukraine do you think such money for upgrade would be spend with the greatest effect, with a "wow" effect, if not on any of the Odesa lines (where you don't like it because the VIP buses are quicker anyway)?
A lot of such routes: Kyiv -Kryvy Rih, Dnipro - Kirovohrad, Kharkiv - Kirovohrad, Odessa - Ternopil, Vinnytsia - Lviv, Vinytsia - Odessa for the beginning (for electric rolling stock).

When KVSZ will manage to produce hybrid of EKr1 and DpKr2 - a lot of other routes can be added to this list, like Kharkiv - Chernihiv (via Hrebinka), Kharkiv - Cherkasy (via Hrebinka), Kyiv - Kherson, Odessa - Zhyromyr in farther future -  Kyiv - KP (with travel time  ~5:45), Kyiv - Sumy (~3:55) it's possible to continue very long.
I must be honest - this is not the list of possible places where easy to achieve really good result on rails, but rather the list of places, where middling result on rails(average 80 km/h or insignificantly more) will be percieved as "wow" just because road condition between those locations are not good => so not only buses sux, but even in some cases with own car it's impossible to compete in speed with such train.

Additionaly a lot of routes can be added here with lower speeds (avg speed between 70 and 80 km/h), in most cases would be perceived as "very fast" and have chance of high popularity in case of lower fare (in terms of contemporary UZ train categories - it must be not IC, but RE train - i.e. the price for example in case 350-400 km travel should be 77 UAH but not 120 UAH). The criteria of such route - where 3 "typical Ukrianian regional center" (=city with +/- 300k population) are located in the line (not in triangle!) with distance between 1st and 3rd within 400-450 km, for example (Vinnytsia - Lutsk can be such example), I consider all such cases must be covered.

But yes, in terms of possibility to set IC+ fare - all those routes are not suitable, the possible additional services with IC+ fare - I afraid are possible only as additional services on the routes where IC+ operate now (4 instead of 3 Kyiv - Kharkiv, 3 instead of 2 Kyiv - Lviv etc)
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Don't you think that a comfortable train (like the TWINDEXX Express
it's little bit offtopic - why do you consider this rolling stock to be comfortable? In my last trip I've tried those (and few other, like Dutch DD-IRM) many times more and found it to be good only for short travel especially when it's full.
OK, let's imagine you've didn't mentioned Twindexx here and we are speaking about an abstract rolling stock with best 2nd class seating composition we've ever seen
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double-deck intercity train, in a 6 car configuration) travelling from the center of Odesa to the center of Kyiv in 5:30 with a ticket price of around 290 Hrivs and discounts for students etc. could count on at least 50% of the current Autoluks passenger flow?
well, Autolux do not carry really so much passengers as some people imagine. Most of Kyiv - Odessa passengers are carried by other, slower buses, jitneys and by own cars. Autolux just set, how to say - kinda standard of speed of day travel. They've created the stereotype the consequence of which is notorious skepticism to any daytime travel between K and Ods longer than 5 hours and I have no possibility to beat it. Probably it's rather mental thing than logical.
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Even if Autoluks makes the trip in 5 hours (sometimes, pending the traffic situation), it is not center to center, but busstation to busstation.
this point (bus station to bus station) is important, though

Ok, first of all I must admit - main reason why I think investing whatever in improvement of speeds Kyiv - Odessa should be considered as "low priority", "non earlier all other possible place of improvement already done" is rather not the possible scepticism regarding competing with buses, jitneys and cars (which I have too, but after your point I'm not so sure), but rather expediency if the aim is to provide possibility to get in moderated travel time to maximal number of destination (let's say from Kyiv for beginning) without focusing on what kind of transport provide this possibility.

Look, now can I to get from Kyiv to Odessa faster during daytime? In ~5 hours by Autolux or insignificantly faster (or probably almost not faster if flight is from KBP) by flight, or in case if I'll mange to find the companion for this travel with onw car - by car.

Even smaller investment will give the possibility to get between K and  KrR by train in 5h.
Or we must postpone this improvement and many other like this and collect all those money and spend them just to get possibilty to ride between Kyiv and Odessa within in same 4,5-5,5 hours not only by plain and bus but also by train. Do you still think it's smart choise?
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XAN_
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« Reply #22 on: 22.09.14 , 23:09 »
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When KVSZ will manage to produce hybrid of EKr1 and DpKr2 - a lot of other routes can be added to this list, like Kharkiv - Chernihiv (via Hrebinka), Kharkiv - Cherkasy (via Hrebinka), Kyiv - Kherson, Odessa - Zhyromyr in farther future -  Kyiv - KP (with travel time  ~5:45), Kyiv - Sumy (~3:55) it's possible to continue very long.
But DpKr2 uses diesel-hydraulic transmission, while all existing hybrid electric-diesel MU uses diesel-electric transmission, AFAIK.
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Sergio
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« Reply #23 on: 22.09.14 , 23:09 »
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No, both D1 series and DR1 series equipped with hydraulic transmission.
The only exception in Ukraine is diese-locomotive (M62 and TE116) based DMU
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joy
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« Reply #24 on: 23.09.14 , 00:09 »
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Kiev-Odessa could be made top priority for investing funds in odrder to fasten the trains - if there were enough well paying pax compensating all the efforts by purchasing expensive tickets.
But is Kiev-Odessa a kind of business destination? Doubtful.
If consider social role of railways, it's better to fasten the trais which are slower than should be and no alternatives like quick shuttle or plane.
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Sergio
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« Reply #25 on: 23.09.14 , 01:09 »
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I hardly can imagine the institutional investor who dares to invest to Urkzaliznitsya at the moment.
As for busness trafic... of course it is signigicant part of the total trafic.
But many of them have better choices (aviation for travellers from outside of Ukraine, direct trains for Lviv or Dnipropetrovsk, own/corporate car as well as high-speed "mad" buses for those who live in Kiev and nearby).




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XAN_
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« Reply #26 on: 23.09.14 , 08:09 »
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No, both D1 series and DR1 series equipped with hydraulic transmission.
The only exception in Ukraine is diese-locomotive (M62 and TE116) based DMU
Ukraine has no hybrid MU, so I mean "...all existing hybrid electric-diesel MU worldwide..."
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Andersen
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« Reply #27 on: 23.09.14 , 15:09 »
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...collect all those money and spend them just to get possibilty to ride between Kyiv and Odessa within in same 4,5-5,5 hours not only by plain and bus but also by train. Do you still think it's smart choise?
No, I agree that that is not the "smartest" choise, considering the alternatives, if you apply a more "global" thinking, including other means of transport.
I guess I normally am thinking more narrowly in terms of train connections, or even commercially feasible train connections (at around 45-50 kopeeks per pass per km). Unfortunately many of the routes you mention doesn't strike me as passenger hits (the cross country ones, avoiding Kyiv), but what do I know. They sure should indeed be realized as train connections (subsidized) and they would bring development to the country and thus benefit more "globally".

Off: Yes, I did think about a virtual comfortable modern IC rolling stock with the best possible seating comfort for travel times of >3 hours. If the Twindexx is no good, then think about the Swedish X-2000. I like the Twindexx from the pictures (design) and for the fact that it is two storied and that it is the second floor has the full length and the most seats (no intermediate floor above the bogies), including the passing between the carriages. With comfortable seats such a train would seem perfect even for "rich people with high self esteem"/business travellers. It wouldn't be "shameful" for them to take the train instead of the car. They could hang out in the cool restaurant to the second floor with a nice view of the countryside and enjoy a bottle of cognac with their buddies.

Off: Stadler offers hybrid diesel-electric/electric-electric RS (with electric axle motors). No big deal, just smart thinking. The axle motors doesn't care about the source of the power, could even be battery (IPEMU) or sun in the future.
« Last Edit: 23.09.14 , 16:09 by Easttripper » Logged
joy
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« Reply #28 on: 23.09.14 , 22:09 »
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As for busness trafic... of course it is signigicant part of the total trafic.
I am not isnider to judge well, but is it so big between Kiev and Odessa?
Business travellers also shuttle between Kiev and Dnepropetrovsk, Kiev and Kharkiv, possibly Kiev and Lviv. Here speedy trains can be demanded. Especially due to the fact there is no such fast road connection as in case of Odessa.
Aviation is a way out but it has shortcomings - probability of delays, connection betw airports and not betw city centers, restrictions for certain kinds of luggage (e.g. liquids).


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Maxy
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« Reply #29 on: 28.09.14 , 18:09 »
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As for busness trafic... of course it is signigicant part of the total trafic.
I am not isnider to judge well, but is it so big between Kiev and Odessa?
конечно. Одесса же - это в первую очередь торговля, пожалуй даже в большей степени, чем порт. Не говоря о том, что Одесса на самом деле довольно таки промышленная, просто у нее "курортный" и "культурный" имидж, за которым ее торговая сущность в стереотипных представлениях как-бы прячется.

В годы средине 90-х - бизнес-активность в Одессе была вообще второй среди украинских городов, сразу после Киева.
С тех пор конечно ситуация выравнялась, позже остальные города-миллионники восстановили свои позиции и оказались опять немного впереди Одессы. Но скажем по авиарасписанию Одесса была второй по количеству авиарейсов после аэропортов Киева еще очень долго, аж до средины 2000-х. Как бы там ни было - Одесса не сильно отстает и по потоку бизнес-путешенственников всяко идет впереди Львова. А вот какая его доля достается железной дороге - другой вопрос.

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. Especially due to the fact there is no such fast road connection as in case of Odessa.
А вот это главный ответ (в сочетании с более высокой, чем на других направлениях, кружностью перевозки по рельсам) почему железной дороге на данном направлении достается сильно пониженый процент бизнес-трафика.
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