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Peter A
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« on: 31.03.17 , 11:03 »
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Entony posted today at 10:21 in 2016-2017 . ( !)

213 ȯ ― 3/05-17

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Would it not be better to run new train 213 Kyiv-Solotvino in the free path of train 129 Kyiv-Uzhgorod between Kyiv and Mukacheve/Chop to create another daily connection between Kyiv and Chop, instead of splitting train 13 into two separate destinations (as 13 to Uzhgorod and as 213 to Solotvino)?
In opposite direction the same?
Best regards from Slovenia,
Peter
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Maxy

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« Reply #1 on: 31.03.17 , 20:03 »
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.

, .
, - ( ).

, , .

- , ( ).
« Last Edit: 31.03.17 , 20:03 by Maxy » Logged
Andersen
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« Reply #2 on: 31.03.17 , 23:03 »
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Let me stick my head out. Maxy is free to edit, of course.

The Night EXpress train 129 is more than 2 hour faster en route from Kyiv to Uzhhorod than train 13 (13:00 vs 15:17). That might not seem like a lot but it is a rather big difference in the Ukrainian railway universe. The railcars and locos in service for train 13 might even not be technically capable of running at the speeds required to make the schedule of the 129.

But even if they are, train 129 also has better comfort railcars and that combined with the higher speed justifies a higher price tag than on train 13 (~500 vs ~300 Hrvis coupe class).
The numbers of travelers who are prepared to pay the higher price AND are traveling further on to Hungary by rail are however limited. The reason is that they might as well fly to Budapest by Wizzair where prices begin at UAH 869 instead of engaging in a 21 hour train ride priced at 500 hrivs plus the Hungarian ticket costs. Thus the perception is that there isn't sufficient demand for an "expensive" NEX train to Chop - and Chop is considered to be well served by the two daily slower and cheaper trains 13 and 81.

Even if NEX train 129 might be positioned as a train for business travelers, my impression is that it attracts quite a number of foreign tourists and expatriated Ukrainians visiting family back home arriving by bus to Uzhhorod.

And there is another side to the ticket price segmentation issue. Travelers bound for the Khust - Solotvino area for whom early arrival is more important than low travel expenses, might get of the train in Mukacheve in the morning (8-9) and take the bus further. Left of the train to Solotvino are those who rather want to save the 100 Hrivs a bus tickets costs and arrive 2-3 hours later than they could, had they changed to a bus.

In other words, train travel to Solotvino appeal mostly to budget travelers, who take advantage of the regressive pricing policy making extra-long-distance train travel only marginally more expensive than long-distance. That segment isn't prepared to pay the difference of 200 Hrivs for a fast 129 schedule, more so since the potential gain is a later departure in the evening from Kyiv, which in this case is of relatively lesser importance than the arrival time to the destination the next day.

A slightly outdated argument is that UZ normally doesn't like trains that are faster than other trains on the first leg of a schedule - and then slows down at the last leg. If it is slow at the last 1/3, so let is be rather slow on the first 2/3 as well, seems to have been the approach traditionally. Such a logic would be unfavorable for your suggestion - a fast train from Kyiv to Chop and then slowed by the change of direction there and the lower allowed-for speeds at the Solotvino line.

Finally I would say that rerouting of train 13 (213) every other day to 129' schedule would partly cut of the towns of the train's northern route from the southern Carpathian region since 129 takes the south-central route through Vinnitsa, although that effect seems to be somewhat mitigated by the fourth Uzhhorod service, train 99, running through Korosten and Shepetivka.

Best regards,
Johannes, Kyiv.
« Last Edit: 01.04.17 , 10:04 by Andersen » Logged
Ulf
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« Reply #3 on: 01.04.17 , 17:04 »
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The Night EXpress train 129 is more than 2 hour faster en route from Kyiv to Uzhhorod than train 13 (13:00 vs 15:17). That might not seem like a lot but it is a rather big difference in the Ukrainian railway universe. The railcars and locos in service for train 13 might even not be technically capable of running at the speeds required to make the schedule of the 129.

But even if they are, train 129 also has better comfort railcars and that combined with the higher speed justifies a higher price tag than on train 13 (~500 vs ~300 Hrvis coupe class).
The numbers of travelers who are prepared to pay the higher price AND are traveling further on to Hungary by rail are however limited. The reason is that they might as well fly to Budapest by Wizzair where prices begin at UAH 869 instead of engaging in a 21 hour train ride priced at 500 hrivs plus the Hungarian ticket costs.

Well, international travelers use RIC cars (they might break up their journey and tickets, of course, I do consider the use of international tickets) and pay East-West tariff for their international ticket, although I am not quite sure how the UZ part will be calculated while bought in Ukraine.

Would there be any difference in having the RIC car included in a "better" train?

Regards, ULF
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Andersen
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« Reply #4 on: 02.04.17 , 15:04 »
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If I understood it right, Peter's question didn't concern added through cars but the routing of domestic trains in their entirety.
The reason I am considering the issue of international travelers is a quest for a market for fast and relatively high priced connections to Chop.
I don't think Chop could pull a train at 500 hrivs per coupe class ticket on its own.
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Maxy

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« Reply #5 on: 06.04.17 , 23:04 »
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I disagree with explanation of Andersen, but there are few important points correctly formulated.
main one is
Quote
ticket price segmentation issue
and explanation
Quote
has better comfort railcars and that combined with the higher speed justifies a higher price tag than on train
is incomplete, because in fact higher comfort cars separately and higher speed separately increase price less significantly, so for having them in combination passenger overpay more, than the sum, that's the key problem of NE trains now.

Quote
justifies a higher price
is more correct regarding NE 111/112 and 113/115. Those train helps to overcome distance from Lviv to Kharkiv in one night.
So they are popular, despite passengers overpay for speed and for better car in total more than usually, but it's justifie because save you too much time (with non-NE speed you definitely need spend some of busines hours for riding even if you also ride all night).

In case of 129/130 in don't work. Especially taking to account, that 129/130 goes roundabout way via Vinnytsia - Khmelnytsky - Ternopil, what is especially stupid for NE - because passengers from  Vinnytsia - Khmelnytsky - Ternopil not so strongly tend to overpay for higher speed than passengers from/to Kyiv, also train passes those 3 cities in inconvenient hour, so by its speed 129/130 saves non-business hours.
But due to going via Vinnytsia - Khmelnytsky - Ternopil train saves less time for passengers to/from Kyiv too, because wins less than possible between Kyiv and Lviv. So 129/130 is total fail in general.
But instead of canceling or correcting of 129/130 - UZ decided to find passengers for it in other way.

Understanding this is very important for appearance of 213/214.

So my personal opinion - the only motivation of UZ in this case was increase the demand for 129/130 which is obviously not satisfactory enough now.
So they didn't want to acknowledge drawbacks of 129/130, but decided oerce passengers to choice of 129/130 by small increasing the deficit of places on usual trains from Uzhhorod to Kyiv. So on days when 129/130 is in operation - 13/14 don't reach Uzhhorod now. While on days when 129/130 don't operate - no need to rape Uzhhorod-Kyiv passengers in this day, so 13/14 on this day still operate on it's normal route.

It also explains why the detour to Chop has left - 129/130 don't stop in Chop (so it's not possible to coerce passengers from Chop to use 129/130, so passengers from Chop are not deprived). Also there is higher % of railroaders among Chop inhabitants, due to this many other in optimal and illogical things are done, for example 829/830 makes stop in Chop, despite only few passengers board/exit here.

So I dare to assert, that providing the direct train from Kyiv to Khust - Solotvyno was not the motivation, but only the pretense. Yes, local authorities from this area asked direct train to Kyiv, but they would ask it 300 years and don't get it in other circumstances. But now UZ needed the plausible excuse to deprive Uzhhorod for 1 train and used old request about direct train Kyiv to Khust and Solotvyno as a pretext.

Quote
If I understood it right, Peter's question didn't concern added through cars but the routing of domestic trains in their entirety.
exactly, and Ulf crearly realizes this too. But it's proper topic to ask other question, about validity of NRT ticket in NE trains, which Ulf asks.
so the answer is

Usual NRT ticket is valid in 129/130 and no additional supplement is needed.
Not only in case of hypothetical RIC attached to this train, but also if you travel in domestic cars too.
Anyway NRT tariff is higher than domestic tariff for NE.

Even in case of maximal possible discount by multilateral agreement - anyway NRT tariff + reservation costs more than domestic tariff+reservation.

For example  901-1000 km (distance from Kyiv to Uzhhorod via Vinnytsia - Ternopil - Kmelnytsky is 913 km) by UZ by NRT tariff cost 48 EUR. But you can buy ticket in country which gives some discount to UZ part according to multilateral agreement. AFAIK biggest possible discount are given by MAV (40%) and CFR (probably 50%, but it's uncertain, it's suggestion of Radan (based on price Suceava - Chernivtsi from .doc file from CFR website), which we hans't managed to check). So MAV definitely can sell NRT ticket Uzhhorod - Kyiv via Ternopil Pidvolochysk Koziatyn-1 and price should be 48*0,6=28,8 EUR. If the suggestion of Radan is correct - CFR hypothetically could sell same ticket in 24 EUR.
And it's possible to combine such ticket with 13-eur reservation and utilize for travel in 129/130, but anyway it will be more expensive than domestic ticket+reservation for 129/130 (~555 UAH=~19 EUR).
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