Railwayclub.info main
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
14.12.19 , 12:12

Login with username, password and session length
Home | Help | Search | Login | Register | References | Blogs | Contact Information

railwayclub.info: train travel answers, travel deals

  discussion

    Train fares and tariffs

      OBB NIghtjet prices

Pages: [1]
Reply | Send this topic | Print
Author Topic: OBB NIghtjet prices  (Read 1120 times)
levcic
User

Posts: 27


View Profile
« on: 25.10.19 , 14:10 »
Share Reply with quote

Hi, I noticed that there are quite important price differences for different routes and for the same service
I consider the accommodation of sleeper single in routes venezia-wien and Milano-wien from one side, and dusseldorf-wien on the other. The cheapest price is eur 139, as written in obb website. But for this price is really difficult to find a place, even booking in great advance of 3-4 months. And actually impossible in route dusseldorf-wien (during at least last two years). In these route you will find, if you are lucky, single sleeper for eur 179, but normally it costs eur 209 or 229. And normally OBB and DB make the same (high) price for the same day and same route. In the route venezia-wien and Milano-wien you can easily find for eur 144, 149, 159, 169, Even near departure day. It happens that ticket plus single sleeper venezia-wien before departure is less expensive than dusseldorf-wien booked 3 months in advance.
I think that when you start to book, the cheapest sparprice is eur 29 or 39 for these routes, but when you select sleeper this price will increase considerably till eur 209 or 229 in the case of german-austrian route, and much less in the case of Italian-austrian route. Also couchettes have more or less eur 40 of difference. The service basically is the same, breakfast included, toilettes matters, soap, towel, welcoming drink, sleepers, but it seems to me that the difference price is in the bed accommodation, not in the ticket. Does somebody know about it or found the same situation and may explain why is like this? In  may 2017 I traveled in single sleepers from Innsbruck to Koblenz for eur 139, booked one month in advance, I think now is not more doable this.
Logged
Maxy

Active user

Posts: 22792


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: 27.10.19 , 15:10 »
Share Reply with quote

Quote
And normally OBB and DB make the same (high) price for the same day and same route.
it's not "normally", AFAIK it's now always.

Since the moment when CNL went away and the overnight trains in Germany are operated by NightJet (=OeBB) - DB sells ticket to those trains on exactly same price as OeBB.  I.e. for the NightJets - DB works simply as one of channels of sale of OeBB tickets and don't have their own price policy for those trains.
Even for the case if passenger utilize overnight train for domestic travel within Germany - for example from Cologne to Regensburg by Nightjet in a sleeping car - DB don't have their own price policy for this case and simply work as channel of sale NightJet (=OeBB) ticket.

While for daytime travel from Austria to Germany or back - the trains are co-operational and ticket price for same train still can be different depending on if you purchase from DB and from OeBB. It applicable both to full price (price before departure) or the price in case of advance purchase. So the juxtaposing the price on DB and OeBB website and purchasing where cheaper - now makes sense only for daytime trains and often helps to pay less, while for overnight trains - checking the price of DB and OeBB is not needed anymore, they are the same.

Quote
In these route you will find, if you are lucky, single sleeper for eur 179, but normally it costs eur 209 or 229
Let me help you to formulate this in more  - on language of analyzing prices on moment of commencing for sale (i.e. 1st day of sale, in half-year before travel, for example on 24th Apr 2020 today):
The price 139 EUR for Single bed compartment without private shower/WC - is available for Wien - Italy trains is commenced on each  each day (not sure about high season). So the higher price for any day can appear only because 139 EUR already sold-out (may be is some short period before departure kinda in 1 day or in 3 days before departure only full price is proposed even if spar ticket was not sold but it's other story).

While for Wien - Dusseldorf/Hamburg trains - usually on 1st day of sale minimal price in 1st day of sale usually 209 EUR. I.e. when you don' t see the 139 price - it's not sold-out 139 EUR contingent. The price lower than 209 for Single bed compartment without private shower/WC initially never been proposed on most of days. Even on 1st day of sale.
Yes, on some days initial price is lower (kinda 179 EUR you'd noticed) but it's sporadic phenomena - for the minority of single particular days.

Quote
I think that when you start to book, the cheapest sparprice is eur 29 or 39 for these routes, but when you select sleeper this price will increase considerably till eur 209 or 229 in the case of german-austrian route, and much less in the case of Italian-austrian route. Also couchettes have more or less eur 40 of difference. The service basically is the same, breakfast included, toilettes matters, soap, towel, welcoming drink, sleepers, but it seems to me that the difference price is in the bed accommodation, not in the ticket. Does somebody know about it or found the same situation and may explain why is like this?
from this moment your logic fails I think.

Nightjets are non-co-operational trains. So there is no automatic distribution of price components like it would work co-operational trains. You cannot suggest that price of travel in seating car is "ticket" and difference between price of travel in sleeper and in seating car is "price of bed reservation". In Nightjets - all amount intially come to same pocket - to OeBB. OeBB is not obliged to distribute it "logically" or "proportionally to cost". They do it how they consider appropriate for commercial success.
Is their approach correct? Well, I don't know exactly, but taking to account they've managed to keep night train alive in Germany in such unfavorable circumstances (when DB  want so much money for utilization of their infrastructure by sleeping cars) - probably their approach is correct. Or at last less wrong than approach of other railways.

I believe prices to Austria-Germany night train are higher than Austria - Italy in Single bed compartment mostly because DB want more money for similar utilization of their infrastructure by sleeping cars than FS. Looks like Nightet (OeBB) consider that for keeping night trains alive it's more appropriate to burden this difference of cost mostly on passenger 1st class, especially those, who travel in Singles, which will help to minimize price difference for those, who travel in cheaper accommodation classes and for the cheapest one -  2nd class seat - keep even same price on Austria - Germany direction as for Austria - Italy, despite probably the cost of carrying passengers even in 2nd class seat on Austria - Italy direction probably is lower than Austria - Germany.
Also the secondary reason can be higher solvency of passengers in Germany comparing to passengers in Italy.

I don't have proof, but I want to point your attention to some facts, which indirectly confirm my hypotheses (basically it show that sleeping cars must literally dodge from DB sections on their way to survive, when dodging not possible - at last minimize the quantity of DB kilometers on their way):

1. Compare how the route of the overnight train Berlin - Vienna/Budapest had changed last year. New route is longer, include more countries (which usually is worse). But the quantity of DB kilometers in new route is significantly smaller and probably minimization of payments for infrastructure to DB was the only aim in this case

2. Please note one peculiar fact about train Moscow - Nice. It goes between Salzburg to Innsbruck not like all long distance train (via bypass of Rosenheim), but via Zell am See. It increase the travel time for 2 hours, the only reason of this sacrifice - evade the DB section (Salzburg - Kufstein).

3. Compare the route of sleeping cars Praha - Zuerich now and few years ago. Old - was via Dresden - Karlsruhe - Basel-Bad - new - via Ceske Budejovice - Linz - Feldkirch.

Quote
In  may 2017 I traveled in single sleepers from Innsbruck to Koblenz for eur 139, booked one month in advance, I think now is not more doable this.
Yes. And the reason why it was possible those time and not possible now - because DB become more "greedy" to sleeping cars since those times.
Logged
Ulf
Active user

Posts: 3441


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: 28.10.19 , 13:10 »
Share Reply with quote

Quote
And normally OBB and DB make the same (high) price for the same day and same route.
it's not "normally", AFAIK it's now always.

Since the moment when CNL went away and the overnight trains in Germany are operated by NightJet (=OeBB) - DB sells ticket to those trains on exactly same price as OeBB.  I.e. for the NightJets - DB works simply as one of channels of sale of OeBB tickets and don't have their own price policy for those trains.
Even for the case if passenger utilize overnight train for domestic travel within Germany - for example from Cologne to Regensburg by Nightjet in a sleeping car - DB don't have their own price policy for this case and simply work as channel of sale NightJet (=OeBB) ticket.

While for daytime travel from Austria to Germany or back - the trains are co-operational and ticket price for same train still can be different depending on if you purchase from DB and from OeBB. It applicable both to full price (price before departure) or the price in case of advance purchase. So the juxtaposing the price on DB and OeBB website and purchasing where cheaper - now makes sense only for daytime trains and often helps to pay less, while for overnight trains - checking the price of DB and OeBB is not needed anymore, they are the same.

Quote
In these route you will find, if you are lucky, single sleeper for eur 179, but normally it costs eur 209 or 229
Let me help you to formulate this in more  - on language of analyzing prices on moment of commencing for sale (i.e. 1st day of sale, in half-year before travel, for example on 24th Apr 2020 today):
The price 139 EUR for Single bed compartment without private shower/WC - is available for Wien - Italy trains is commenced on each  each day (not sure about high season). So the higher price for any day can appear only because 139 EUR already sold-out (may be is some short period before departure kinda in 1 day or in 3 days before departure only full price is proposed even if spar ticket was not sold but it's other story).

While for Wien - Dusseldorf/Hamburg trains - usually on 1st day of sale minimal price in 1st day of sale usually 209 EUR. I.e. when you don' t see the 139 price - it's not sold-out 139 EUR contingent. The price lower than 209 for Single bed compartment without private shower/WC initially never been proposed on most of days. Even on 1st day of sale.
Yes, on some days initial price is lower (kinda 179 EUR you'd noticed) but it's sporadic phenomena - for the minority of single particular days.

Quote
I think that when you start to book, the cheapest sparprice is eur 29 or 39 for these routes, but when you select sleeper this price will increase considerably till eur 209 or 229 in the case of german-austrian route, and much less in the case of Italian-austrian route. Also couchettes have more or less eur 40 of difference. The service basically is the same, breakfast included, toilettes matters, soap, towel, welcoming drink, sleepers, but it seems to me that the difference price is in the bed accommodation, not in the ticket. Does somebody know about it or found the same situation and may explain why is like this?
from this moment your logic fails I think.

Nightjets are non-co-operational trains. So there is no automatic distribution of price components like it would work co-operational trains. You cannot suggest that price of travel in seating car is "ticket" and difference between price of travel in sleeper and in seating car is "price of bed reservation". In Nightjets - all amount intially come to same pocket - to OeBB. OeBB is not obliged to distribute it "logically" or "proportionally to cost". They do it how they consider appropriate for commercial success.

But if you try to book Vienna - Düsseldorf on 31.12.2019, it says 29,90 + 180.- for single bed accommodation.

Regards, ULF
Logged
levcic
User

Posts: 27


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: 30.10.19 , 11:10 »
Share Reply with quote

Thanks to Maxu for detailed explanation, now everything is clear. I agree with hypotheses of dodging from DB sections as confirmed by mentioned route changements 1,2,3 of sleeping cars.
We will see which price policy will make Obb for the new connection Wien/Innsbruck to Brussels, starting twice a week from January 2020, considering that is not possible for this route to dodge German territory. In order to make the connection more attractive, do you think reduced sparpreis will be possible for couchettes and sleeping cars, as already mentioned for EUR 139, at least at the beginning? Is also important which role will play in this matter SNCB.
By the way, which way will follow the new connection? By information given on obb website it seems that Twice a week the train, once arrived at Koln, will continue to Brussels instead of going to dusseldorf. But cars from wien/Innsbruck to brussels are an added portion to the existing nightjet going to dusseldorf, which will separate at koln?
Logged
Maxy

Active user

Posts: 22792


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: 02.11.19 , 12:11 »
Share Reply with quote

At last from what I can see in SCOTTY - schedules are not "compatible" to make the separation in Cologne.

Duesseldorf-bound timetable have arrival to Cologne at 8:15, while Brussels-bound on the same day - don't have listed stops between Nuernberg and Aachen, but have more early departure hour from Nuernberg (2:00 instead of 2:46). But the most important - the arrival to Aachen at 8:37. Even if we'll suggest the difference in departure hours from Nuernberg is the typo  - anyway it wouldn't be possible to reach Aachen by 8:37 if you continue to Aaachen after arrival to Cologne at 8:15.

At the same time - the departure hour from Aachen at 2:00 instead of 2:46 - is also the departure hour of Hamburg-bound group of cars

I think there is a mistake wherever.

I could believe that Brussels-bound cars overcome the section Nuernberg - Cologne earlier and separately from Duesseldorf-bound cars to provide not so late arrival to Brussels, despite such solution looks like very weird (too cost wastefull taking to account it's DB section). But in this case - the departure from Nuernberg probably must be anyway not at the 2:00, but later, because the way to Aachen - it's the same track to Wuerzburg and it's already busy with such departure hour by Hamburg-bound piece of train. And it's not possible to suggest that Hamburg - and Brussels-bound groups leave together and separate wherever later, because Hamburg-bound train have only 3 min of stop in Wuerzburg, which makes impossible the separation here.
« Last Edit: 02.11.19 , 14:11 by Maxy » Logged
Ulf
Active user

Posts: 3441


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: 04.11.19 , 14:11 »
Share Reply with quote

At last from what I can see in SCOTTY - schedules are not "compatible" to make the separation in Cologne.

Duesseldorf-bound timetable have arrival to Cologne at 8:15, while Brussels-bound on the same day - don't have listed stops between Nuernberg and Aachen, but have more early departure hour from Nuernberg (2:00 instead of 2:46). But the most important - the arrival to Aachen at 8:37. Even if we'll suggest the difference in departure hours from Nuernberg is the typo  - anyway it wouldn't be possible to reach Aachen by 8:37 if you continue to Aaachen after arrival to Cologne at 8:15.

At the same time - the departure hour from Aachen at 2:00 instead of 2:46 - is also the departure hour of Hamburg-bound group of cars

I think there is a mistake wherever.

I could believe that Brussels-bound cars overcome the section Nuernberg - Cologne earlier and separately from Duesseldorf-bound cars to provide not so late arrival to Brussels, despite such solution looks like very weird (too cost wastefull taking to account it's DB section). But in this case - the departure from Nuernberg probably must be anyway not at the 2:00, but later, because the way to Aachen - it's the same track to Wuerzburg and it's already busy with such departure hour by Hamburg-bound piece of train. And it's not possible to suggest that Hamburg - and Brussels-bound groups leave together and separate wherever later, because Hamburg-bound train have only 3 min of stop in Wuerzburg, which makes impossible the separation here.

Lines separate in Gemünden. They might introduce a technical stop.
High Speed line is reserved for freigh at night.

Are you sure Vienna - Düsseldorf and Vienna - Brussels carrioages are shown on the
same dates and weekdays?

Regards, ULF
Logged
Maxy

Active user

Posts: 22792


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: 04.11.19 , 14:11 »
Share Reply with quote

yes. If we focus on the period from the middle of January till the end of February - it's daily operation of overnight train from Vienna to Duessldorf in SCOTTY, despite it's very non-obvious.

Yes there are 3 different trains Vienna - Duesseldorf in SCOTTY now, all are NJ 40490 and each of them are not daily.
one of them - have following operation days

        5    10   15   20   25   30
    ----+----+----+----+----+----+-
Dez            xxxx        
Jan     xxxxx  xxxx  xx xx xx xx
Feb   xxxx  xx xx xx xx  xx xx
Mär  x                      
Nov  xx xx  xx xx xx xx  xxxx  x
Dez x xx xx xxx              

in few words - between middle of January and end of February it's the operation on Mon, Tue, Thu, Fri, in total - only 4 times per week

The second one - have operation days
fährt am 12. Jan bis 9. Dez 2020 Mi, So; nicht 5. Jul bis 26. Aug 2020


The third one - have operation days
fährt am 11. Jan bis 29. Feb 2020 Sa


In total those 3 trains form the daily operation

Yes, I've intitially noticed not daily operation of 1st of those train and suggested that operation to Brussels will be instead of Duesseldorf - i.e. train will operate Vienna - Duesseldorf on Mon, Tue, Thu, Fri and Vienna - Brussels on Wed, Sun and on Saturdays - neither Brussels nor Duessledorf.
But later found 2 other trains Vienna - Duesseldorf.
« Last Edit: 04.11.19 , 16:11 by Maxy » Logged
Ulf
Active user

Posts: 3441


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: 10.11.19 , 16:11 »
Share Reply with quote

At last from what I can see in SCOTTY - schedules are not "compatible" to make the separation in Cologne.

Duesseldorf-bound timetable have arrival to Cologne at 8:15, while Brussels-bound on the same day - don't have listed stops between Nuernberg and Aachen, but have more early departure hour from Nuernberg (2:00 instead of 2:46). But the most important - the arrival to Aachen at 8:37. Even if we'll suggest the difference in departure hours from Nuernberg is the typo  - anyway it wouldn't be possible to reach Aachen by 8:37 if you continue to Aaachen after arrival to Cologne at 8:15.

New timings. Nr. 50490, stops in Frankfurt Süd, Flughafen Fern, Mainz, Koblenz, Bann-Beuel, Köln Hbf.

Nürnberg departure 2:46.

Aachen arrival 8:13, 8:36 or 8:46.

Regards, ULF
Logged
Tags:
Pages: [1]
Reply | Send this topic | Print
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.8 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!