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Author Topic: Новини з розкладів залізниць ЄС  (Read 2184 times)
Andersen
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« Reply #10 on: 18.01.20 , 15:01 »
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A RESURRECTION FOR SLEEPER TRAINS FROM SCANDINAVIA TO THE CONTINENT?

The Swedish infrastructure administrator Trafikverket has released a preliminary report on the possibilities of relaunching subsidized overnight sleeper trains from Stockholm/Oslo/Malmo/Copenhagen to the European continent. Considering the "high German infrastructure use fees" the report says there is a need "to fill the train with many passengers for a number of destinations." With that in mind they want to begin with a train from Malmö to Köln, from where there are good daytime high speed connections further on, as shown here (all destinations in Italic imply change to day trains in either Köln or Aachen):



I think that strategy is wrong. We can't get westerners to opt for the night train instead of airplane if they all have to get up at 5:30 and change train. The Swedes consider an extension to Aachen or Bruxelles, but I instead suggest the following direct connections (italic also here means means use of connecting trains, most is direct by sleeper RS):



What do you think?
PS All estimations on times en route are based on 200 km/h rolling stock, mine are even a bit more conservative than those of Trafikverket.
« Last Edit: 18.01.20 , 15:01 by Andersen » Logged
Andersen
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« Reply #11 on: 18.01.20 , 15:01 »
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They are showing this map of 12-hour night train reach from Copenhagen, where 12 hours is considered the max for business travelers, while 17 hours is the limit for holiday trips, they say.
« Last Edit: 18.01.20 , 15:01 by Andersen » Logged
Maxy
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« Reply #12 on: 19.01.20 , 01:01 »
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I think that strategy is wrong.
I agree, but my comments will be quite other than yours.
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We can't get westerners to opt for the night train instead of airplane if they all have to get up at 5:30 and change train
yes, but didn't you tried to understand their logic, what makes them follow this idiotism?

I think the reason why they suggested so stupid arrival hour to Cologne I think caused by consequences of idea, that overnight train can be competitive versus faster daytime train (or flight) plus staying for night in hotel/hostel only in case if destination city have price of accommodation which is higher than price difference between seating and sleeping car of of corresponding type. Let's say if following conditions are med

price of T4 - price of travel in seat < bed in hostel dormitory
price of double with shower - price of seat < inexpensive hotel price.

Despite I partially agree with this logic, but not totally though. I.e. matching the conditions above of course very helpful for survival of overpriced overnight train, but it's not strictly mandatory, because its possible to remind few successful overnight trains where conditions like those are not met.

Anyway I think main concern is following: in cases when this logic follow us to absurd result - we shouldn't follow it.

And that is the key issue of this report, I think. I suggest they'd managed to figure out the hotels in Germany are in general are too cheap and conditions of price difference will not be met in destinations in Germany. So they tried to provide "product" which will lead people to places where hotels are pricey enough - i.e. London, Paris and Switzerland (btw Basel is rather their fail, it's bad example because unlike most other cities of Switzerland - it's possible to find moderately priced accommodation here, i.e. they need not Basel, but Zuerich here) and provide arrival hour not late (i.e. earier than arrival hour by kinda 7-8 am flight).
I afraid the wish to provide arrival to Paris by 10 am forced them to choose so stupid arrival hour to Cologne.

I think this will not work, both because the argument you've written (too early arrival to place of mandatory change) and because expensive price of next section (overnigth train to Cologne + Thalys to Paris in total will cost horribly much).

What I propose?

Well, it don't know how much DSB and SJ kilometers for overnight train cost comparing to DB. If they cost cheaper than kilometers of DB - I think more chances for survival will have overnight train Stockholm 22:00 - 7:45 Hamburg (i.e with DB-section as short as possible to make price lower and hope to increase pupolarity due to lower price despite reaching Paris/London/Zuerich before midday remain unavailable). Unfortunately in this case making train useless for Malmo/Copenhagen is unavoidable, otherwise it's not possible to achieve travel time > 8 hours.

In case if DBS/SJ kilometers are not cheaper (i.e. cutting DB part by Hamburg don't help to decrease price and make Stockholm -Hamburg cheaper than for example Malmo - Cologne) - in this case probably we need to put up train will be horribly overpriced, thus unavoidably non-competitive with German hotels, thus anyway it must be more Amsterdam/Bruxeles/London/Paris oriented (but not Germany-oriented). In such case probably the "useless for Germany" times - with passing all German sections during night hours and  route via Bad Bentheim (i.e. not passing via Cologne) - Utrecht - Rotterdam with departures like Copenhagen 21:40, Aarhus 22:00, all Germany in horrible night hours and arrivals at 7:00 to Utrecht, 7:39 to Rotterdam and then with stops in Breda and Antwerpen with arrival at 9:49 to Bruxelles).

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All estimations on times en route are based on 200 km/h rolling stock
you shouldn't do it uniformly.
Each case should be calculated individually.
Thing is different countries have different loyalty to 200 km/h rolling stock on their high-speed lines, while convenient lines along high-speed lines often don't have good speeds (not always even 160 km/h is possible).

For example France don't tolerate such rolling stock on their LGV while convenient railways along LGV are not very fast. The sections for speeds over 160 km/h in France exist, but strictly on sections which are not duplicated by LGV (which is logical) but in combination with intolerance to non-TGV on LGV it lead sometimes to non-obvious results - overnight train will be unexpectedly slow on some sections which you used to consider "fast". For example travel time to Paris from all directions will be much longer, than you can expect by travel time by daytime trains.
I'm not sure about Belgium, but afaik there is the same problem and probably that's the reason why NJ Wien - Bruxelles wastes more than 3 hours for section Aachen - Bruxelles (instead of 1h12min by high-speed line).

So Cologne 4:45 - Bruxelles 9:15 - Paris 9:00 as in xls table suggested by you is definitely not doable by overnight train. London in your example is not by italics, which is typo I think, because it's physically not possible, the rolling stock which can go to UK must be 2.7 meters wide (not 3 meters) and few other requirements, so also not possible regardless of travel time.

In other countries usually access of non-high-speed rolling stock to high-speed railways is possible (often even 160 km/h rolling stock is allowed on high-speed lines) but only if don't interfere with high-speed trains and there is no additional issues, which often appear. For example many high speed lines are closedfor night or some particular hours of night for maintenance - that's for example the reason why same NJ Wien - Bruxelles cannot speed-up by utilizing high-speed line between Wuerzburg and Frankfurt, because passes here in hours when high-speed line is closed.
« Last Edit: 19.01.20 , 01:01 by Maxy » Logged
Andersen
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« Reply #13 on: 19.01.20 , 12:01 »
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The Swedish report quote congestion at Hamburg and Cologne stations between 6 and 9 in the morning as a reason for the early arrival at 6 to Cologne.
I don't think the price vs. hotel calculation of yours is a central part of their concern, the simply want as many as possible potential passengers and think that an overnight providing onward connections to everything from München to Paris to London is bound to become a success.

The main reason for my post was to highlight the infrastructure access fees and their damaging role, since direct or almost direct travel without changes (or with a late change like in Bruxelles or Lille for trips to Paris and London) is important for the customer. And that means splitting a long train into shorter sleeper train sets setions to a number of destinations.
It is crucial to get those fees lowered for the overnight trains and that will take political pressure. Therefore I am not really considering the access fee issue but rather maximum customer convenience - to attract the max number of passengers.  

I hadn't paid attention to the TGV-only policy on the LGV lines in France and direct London trains might also not be feasible - but ideally the overnight train should go as long as possible - within, as you said, the reach of arrival times of around 10-11 am for business travel and 12-14 pm for leisure travel, reflecting the competitor - the travel time of a morning flight taking of around 7-8 from Stockholm, Oslo or Copenhagen plus flight time.

Arranging night train with timings that effectively exclude customers from Copenhagen as you suggest isn't considered feasible. The intention in the report is clearly aiming to embrace the biggest possible potential client base.

Even in my example with a departure from Cph at 19:30 the arrival to Bruxelles is early, at 6:45 - at should be early to enable onward travel to London and Paris with decent arrival times, but the passengers could be allowed to stay in the train until 8:00 or that "otstoi" could be done at Lille, which could be a terminate station for travel to London and Paris.

Eurocrats might still like the early arrival to Bruxelles and if not - they can opt for the later overnight from Stockholm.
« Last Edit: 19.01.20 , 12:01 by Andersen » Logged
Andersen
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« Reply #14 on: 19.01.20 , 18:01 »
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What I propose?

Well, it don't know how much DSB and SJ kilometers for overnight train cost comparing to DB. If they cost cheaper than kilometers of DB - I think more chances for survival will have overnight train Stockholm 22:00 - 7:45 Hamburg (i.e with DB-section as short as possible to make price lower and hope to increase pupolarity due to lower price despite reaching Paris/London/Zuerich before midday remain unavailable). Unfortunately in this case making train useless for Malmo/Copenhagen is unavoidable, otherwise it's not possible to achieve travel time > 8 hours.
That is btw almost exactly what Trafikverket mentions in the report as an alternative (Altona instead of Hbf due to congestion at Hbf in the morning rush hour traffic).
I obviously prefer to have two trains like this
                           Kbh 20:00 - Cologne 05:15 - Bruxelles 07:15 with both London and Paris before 10:00, yes, by expensive high-speed train, beginning at 45 euro.
Stockholm 17:30 - Kbh 22:45 - Cologne 08:00 - Bruxelles 10:00

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Tr_Temp
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« Reply #15 on: 20.01.20 , 13:01 »
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Крупнейший чешский частный ж/д оператор RegioJet в конце 2019 года подал заявку в Администрацию железнодорожного транспорта Польши (UTK) относительно возможности запуска своих поездов по маршруту Прага - Перемышль - Медыка (на границе с Украиной).

Об этом сообщает ЦТС со ссылкой на Rynek kolejowy.

Ранее, в августе 2019 года, RegioJet проинформировал о планах запуска данного маршрута чешского оператора ж/д инфраструктуры. Компания, как уже сообщалось, намерена начать пассажирские ж/д перевозки из Праги через Пардубице, Остраву, Богумин (Чехия), Краков, Жешув, Перемышль, Медыка (Польша) до станции Мостиска 2, что во Львовской области.

"Мы подтверждаем, что этот запрос был получен. В настоящее время он проверяется с точки зрения полноты и соответствия требованиям положений о предоставлении так называемого открытого доступа. Вполне возможно, что перевозчик будет вызван для устранения формальных недостатков. Оператор указал в заявке, что он хотел бы осуществлять перевозки по маршруту Мостиска-Прага с 14 июня 2020 года", - проинформировал пресс-секретарь Администрации ж/д транспорта Польши Томаш Франковски.

"В связи с нашими планами по запуску сообщения Чехия-Украина с июня 2020 года, которые мы уже официально представили, мы сделали следующий шаг в процессе получения маршрута в рамках процедуры открытого доступа в Польше. Как и на других маршрутах, где мы уже работаем, цель RegioJet - предложить комфортные условия путешествия в сочетании с полноценным бортовым обслуживанием RegioJet по цене, которая будет конкурентоспособной по сравнению с автобусными перевозками и бюджетными авиакомпаниями", - отметил в свою очередь пресс-секретарь RegioJet Алеш Ондрюй.

Напомним, в конце лета прошлого года стало известно, что RegioJet намерена запустить в июне 2020 года прямой ночной поезд в Украину. Поезд будет отправляться один раз в день в каждом из направлений. В составе поезда будет от 8 до 12 вагонов. Из Праги он будет отправляться в 22:10, прибывать на украинскую приграничную ж/д станцию - в 9:30.

Перевозчик хочет реализовать комбинированный маршрут - из Праги до Мостиски будет ходить поезд, а из Мостиски во Львов пассажиры смогут добраться автобусом. "Цель состоит в перевозке пассажиров, особенно между Львовской областью Украины и ключевыми центрами в Чешской Республике и других странах ЕС", - пояснял представитель RegioJet.

https://cfts.org.ua/news/2020/01/20/cheshskiy_regiojet_podal_zayavku_na_zapusk_poezdov_mezhdu_chekhiey_i_ukrainoy_56942
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Andersen
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« Reply #16 on: 21.01.20 , 08:01 »
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The Regiojet is likely to have seating type cars on the overnight run to Ukraine. Which might also be why they compare themselves with bus services.
« Last Edit: 21.01.20 , 08:01 by Andersen » Logged
W_777
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« Reply #17 on: 21.01.20 , 11:01 »
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Я думал, что когда частным компаниям разрешат пользоваться украинской жд инфраструктурой, то РегиоДжет в первую очередь продлит поезд Прага-Кошице до Мукачево.
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magnolian
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« Reply #18 on: 21.01.20 , 12:01 »
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Я думал, что когда частным компаниям разрешат пользоваться украинской жд инфраструктурой, то РегиоДжет в первую очередь продлит поезд Прага-Кошице до Мукачево.
Там, здається, ділянка неелектрифікована. В свій час, це була причина чому РегіоДжет відмовився від відрізку Кошіце-Гуменне. Занадто неефективно було змінювати електровоз на тепловоз в Кошицях.
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adul
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« Reply #19 on: 21.01.20 , 12:01 »
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Я думал, что когда частным компаниям разрешат пользоваться украинской жд инфраструктурой, то РегиоДжет в первую очередь продлит поезд Прага-Кошице до Мукачево.
Там, здається, ділянка неелектрифікована. В свій час, це була причина чому РегіоДжет відмовився від відрізку Кошіце-Гуменне. Занадто неефективно було змінювати електровоз на тепловоз в Кошицях.
Не електрифіковано менше 10 км в межах вантажних парків станцій, все інше електрифіковано.
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